Multi Level Spells


Keilas
Keilas's picture

hi,

If a Shek-Pvar knows how to cast "Maintain" at level 2 with an ML of 80 and then develop a new version at level 3, he opens it at a lower level : say ML 40 for example.

From that point, if he wants to cast maintain on a 2 lvl spell, he casts it at 40 and not 80 as before.

It seems strange to me :
Masterising a more difficult version of a spell implies becoming less proficient with less difficult versions ?

I would rather conserve the ML of precedent versions and apply it when relevant.

What is your opinion about the logic behind the mecanic ?

Thanks,
Jean-Nicolas

cyrion
cyrion's picture

Houserule

I have a houserule for this case.

When a Shek Pvar learns a multilevel spell up, he can cast the lower versions with an EML of double the ML of the higher version.

Keilas
Keilas's picture

Multi level spells

Simple and elegant, nice house rule to me.

Ken
Ken's picture

multi-level spells

The house rule gives the Shek-Pvar an inappropriate bonus to lower level complexity spells in my opinion. Essentially what's happening is that by upgradeing the spell the Shek-Pvar initially maintains his ML of the lower level or actually increases it and then gains a double progression in the lower level spell onwards.

Example:

Maintain II ML = 80
Upgrade to Maintain III CS
Maintain III ML = 60
Maintain II ML jumps to 120?

Or

Maintain II ML = 80
Upgrade to Maintain III MS
Maintain III ML = 40
Maintain II ML stays at 80.

So intially, the Shek Pvar might gain a significant boost through this process. Too much in my opinion. Even if they only maintain the same level at first, they will still ADVANCE that lower level spell at twice the rate they would normally. A plus 1 to the ML of Maintain III equals an automatic plus 2 to the level of Maintain II.

Another way to look at it is this. Multi-Level spells aren't.

I don't think HMG: Shek-Pvar does a very good job at getting across that the spell descriptions and names are only examples and are often arranged simply for the reader's convenience.

Each and every spell that a Shek-Pvar knows is uniquely personal to them. A spell is the manipulation of cosmic forces through the prism of ones OWN aura. So while Maintain level 2 is a certain spell for Ackbar the Great, it's a completely different one for Sheila Silvertongue. There are similarities to be sure, and the game effect is the same. But that's it.

On to the multi-level spells. The text states that "a distinct version exists for each complexity level". In other words, Maintain II is NOT the same spell as Maintain III. It would be tedious to explicitly write out each and every multi-level and multi-convocational spell in the already overly large HMG: Shek Pvar publication, so all the "Maintains" have been lumped together under one spell entry. That doesn't make them the same spell though. One could just as easily (and perhaps more accurately) call one spell Sheila's Endurance, and the other Pvaric Longevity. Two different spells, two different MLs, similar effects.

When a Shek-Pvar is casting Maintain III. That's what he's casting, and his mastery over that and the difficulty it entails remains the same regardless of the target spell he's trying to affect. He doesn't NEED to cast Maintain III on a level II spell if he has Maintain II at his disposal, but he is free to do so, and it is entirely possible that he is (though repeated practice) better at Maintain III than at Maintain II. If the reverse is the case, then by all means, a prudent Shek-Pvar would simply cast Maintain II.

Now the rules do muddy things a bit when they talk about converting "multi-level spells" from one complexity level to the next. It explains a procedure where you drop the SB by 1 (the normal expression of complexity level's affect on SB) and then test the original spells ML, resulting in a 25% to 50% drop in the OML of the new spell. In this case you "erase" the old version.

What the Shek-Pvar is essentially doing in this case is NOT learning the new "proper" Maintain III, but instead learning how to kludge more power through the Maintain II spell. She is simply forcing more principle through her form in order to gain the extra capabilities of Maintain III. A Shek-Pvar's Form is simply a mental template, an understanding of the relationship between her aura and the forces of reality around it. It is a finely tuned "state of being" that requires intense concentration and sensitivity.

Increasing the complexity level of an existing spell by forcing more principle through it than one is accustomed to, damages the "aural memory" of the form. The Shek-Pvar has essentially "widened the gap" and can't close it back up except by essentially relearning the old state of the form. In other words, reopening Maintain II as a new, seperate spell.

Note, to open Maintain III, you CAN convert Maintain II; but you don't HAVE to. Instead, you could simply research Maintain III as a new spell and even use the spell similarity optional rule to gain a Research Target Level bonus.

That make any sense?

Jack
Jack's picture

"That make any sense?"

Ken -

1) I don't use (or own) HMG, so I'm handicapped when I read HMG posts.

2) The initial post about the loss of skill going from Maintain II to Maintain III made the HMG magic system sound really bad to someone who's never read it (like me).

3) Your explanation was stunningly clear, perfectly explained the relationships involved, and greatly improved my opinion of the HMG magic rules (like from 2 to 9 or so on the ten-scale).

Great job, sir!

----------

Old style heraldry: Sable, the pale argent.

New style heraldry: Oreo, resting on edge.

Ken
Ken's picture

multi-level spells

Hi Jack,

1. Well now, that's something we need to remedy eh? ;)
2. Hadn't even thought of that.
3. Thanks! (Now who do I convince you it's a 10?) :)

cyrion
cyrion's picture

That make any sense...

Ken,

Thank you for this inside view how Hârn can work.

For my house rule i do simplify and I forgot about that every level has his own multilevel spell.
I had the idea that a multilevel spell is a sort of a spellchain.
A Shek Pvar who level up a multilevel spell up does not learn a new spell, she let the spell grow. She learns new facets of the spell.
But the simple house rule does not catch this. (It was a game table desicion and not worked over because the player of the Shek Pvar left.)

Even if she learned a new spell why should she forget the old level, why will the "aural memory" be damaged?

If the Process is a sort of growing into something bigger, perhaps the wizard just can use the older knowledge.

That just will work if the multilevel spell has no sole spell in each level.

(Sorry if it is a little confusing, but it is a long time ago that I try to do a complex topic in English,:-))

Thanks

Cyrion

Ken
Ken's picture

no worries about the

no worries about the English, you're doing great. :)

If she learns a new spell she doesn't forget the old one. If the Shek-Pvar has learned Maintain II and decides to research Maintain III that's all well and good. It's no different than if she had learned Bolt of Jolt, and then decided to research Beam of Nolar. Simply two different spells, each with their own SB and ML.

On the other hand, if she has learned Maintian II and doesn't have the time or desire to research a whole new spell, she can try to force more out of the Maintain II spell giving it essentially the same effects as a Maintain III.

That's all well and good, but how does a mage actually use principle and form and all these words that really don't mean anything? :)

A mage summons principle into his or her aura, then configures the aura into a "form" and finally pushes the principle through it. This principle is "shaped" by the form and as it passes through creates an effect we call a magical spell.

Now how does a mage configure his aura and how does he know that he's done it correctly? It's all a matter of sensitivity and "feel". I know my pizza is done cooking because I can smell it. When it smells just right, it's done. Same sort of thing. The Shek-Pvar don't have kitchen timers and they can't simply "look" at the form. Instead they rely on the "pressure" of the principle against their form to determine the necessary configuration. It's as much a matter of sensitivity as it is control.

If a form is strained too much (by passing too much principle through it too quickly) it "stretches" and the sensitivity is compromised. The mage doesn't forget how to cast a spell with less principle, he or she simply can't detect the correct configuration without a larger amount of pressure. But...More pressure means it's harder to maintain the desired configuration, thus a higher complexity level, and stronger effects.

Ken
Ken's picture

oh, and if all of this is

oh, and if all of this is simply too much bother to worry about, just ignore the whole upgrade bit. Make your mage learn a new spell. Keep it simple :)


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