Recent comments

  • 15-square wide regional maps   2 years 12 weeks ago

    I fear that as long as we remain in 2d we will always have a larger error then a centimeter on regional maps, and nothing can change that - unless Kelestia becomes a mighty bit larger or plain (both would be hard to rationalize, though).
    As for gameplay, being added on the edges of the "known world" the difference is neglectible, and as far as I am concerned: more Hârn is better, and 15 is more then 14 :-)

  • 15-square wide regional maps   2 years 12 weeks ago

    You do know that the old way was an error, right?
    You do know that the "distortion" you speak of only happens 2-3 regional maps east of Harn, right?
    Should we just keep using Erastothenes calculation even though we can now map the earth from space with satellites that leave a margin of error less than a centimeter.
    And in closing you do know that being polite will get you a better reception on these pages, right?

  • 15-square wide regional maps   2 years 12 weeks ago

    You do know that the old way was an error, right?
    You do know that the "distortion" you speak of only happens 2-3 regional maps east of Harn, right?
    Should we just keep using Erastothenes calculation even though we can now map the earth from space with satellites that leave a margin of error less than a centimeter.
    And in closing you do know that being polite will get you a better reception on these pages, right?

  • 15-square wide regional maps   2 years 12 weeks ago

    Thank you, rbs, for at least one b.s.-free answer.

    Any representation of a sphere on a flat surface will distort distances. At 0.9 Earth size, the original regional maps' width would be:

    latitude 60N = 30° = 1487 km = 372 leagues;
    latitude 50N = 23°20' = 1504 km = 376 leagues;
    latitude 40N = 19°40' = 1504 km = 376 leagues;
    latitude 30N = 17°30' = 1514 km = 378,5 leagues;
    latitude 0 = 15° = 1500 km = 375 leagues.

    (Ivinia 50N-60N, Hârn and Shorkyne 40N-50N, Trierzon 30N-40N)

    We all agree that regional maps should be 375 leagues wide. A purely rational but extremely impractical solution would have been to reapply the 15-square grid unto already existing maps of Hârn as they were. This solution would have contradicted (quite extensively) the printed material. My solution in the 90's was to chalk it up to the East-West travelling distance distortion (5 hexes to cross a square North-South or 6 hexes to cross it East-West.

    You chose instead to add an unmapped square on each end of the printed maps, causing a distortion in every other global map. *Vox populi vox Dei* or *My community will never agree together on an error*, especially if prophet Robin says so. I can live with that.

    OTOH, geometry, math, geography, cartography, even navigation are all relevant skills here. Technology has jack to do with the issue. Eratosthenes of Cyrene calculated the Earth's circumference to .016 with a stick and a hole in the ground.

  • 15-square wide regional maps   2 years 12 weeks ago

    Thank you, rbs, for at least one b.s.-free answer.

    Any representation of a sphere on a flat surface will distort distances. At 0.9 Earth size, the original regional maps' width would be:

    latitude 60N = 30° = 1487 km = 372 leagues;
    latitude 50N = 23°20' = 1504 km = 376 leagues;
    latitude 40N = 19°40' = 1504 km = 376 leagues;
    latitude 30N = 17°30' = 1514 km = 378,5 leagues;
    latitude 0 = 15° = 1500 km = 375 leagues.

    (Ivinia 50N-60N, Hârn and Shorkyne 40N-50N, Trierzon 30N-40N)

    We all agree that regional maps should be 375 leagues wide. A purely rational but extremely impractical solution would have been to reapply the 15-square grid unto already existing maps of Hârn as they were. This solution would have contradicted (quite extensively) the printed material. My solution in the 90's was to chalk it up to the East-West travelling distance distortion (5 hexes to cross a square North-South or 6 hexes to cross it East-West.

    You chose instead to add an unmapped square on each end of the printed maps, causing a distortion in every other global map. *Vox populi vox Dei* or *My community will never agree together on an error*, especially if prophet Robin says so. I can live with that.

    OTOH, geometry, math, geography, cartography, even navigation are all relevant skills here. Technology has jack to do with the issue. Eratosthenes of Cyrene calculated the Earth's circumference to .016 with a stick and a hole in the ground.

  • Atlas Keléstia - SHKN G5 (Yelâben), F5 (Trevéhedè) & E5 (Baas), revised   2 years 12 weeks ago

    Those squares would complete 2 additional convenient blocks. K4 would be the last piece of Ledenhem-W. Hurisea block, and E8 finishes the central Shorkyne coast.

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  • Atlas Keléstia - SHKN K2 (Hléjis)   2 years 12 weeks ago

    Jack, I'm not aware that Robin left behind any material related specifically to Hlejis, and perhaps any other gargun complex. So if KP were to publish a Hlejis article with interior maps, it would in all probability be someone else's perspective. And if either you or Puster or someone else develops the caverns, we would be very interested in seeing what you do. :)

  • Atlas Keléstia - SHKN K2 (Hléjis)   2 years 12 weeks ago

    I appreciate KP's emphasis on the regional maps, because modules require more in the way of writing, artwork, layout, and so on. That said, this is one area where I would LOVE to see an interior map. I have any number of old interior maps from NRC's work in the '80s, including several Gargun complexes, but it would be so interesting to see if his perspective on how a Gargun complex is laid out changed once he stopped working with Eric Hotz...

  • Atlas Keléstia - SHKN K2 (Hléjis)   2 years 13 weeks ago

    I stalled my campaign for some time to get this map first :-)

    I put the hooks I used for my group to bring them there into the Lythiaforum-thread.

  • Atlas Keléstia - SHKN K2 (Hléjis)   2 years 13 weeks ago

    There seem to be some folks looking for off-Harn gargun adventures.

  • Atlas Keléstia - SHKN K2 (Hléjis)   2 years 13 weeks ago

    That is great. I was waiting for this map.

  • 15-square wide regional maps   2 years 13 weeks ago

    KP's decision to produce 15-square-wide regional maps was not made on a whim. There was a major conflict in the old (1980s) maps that needed to be corrected. Making the new regional maps 15 squares wide was the easiest way to fix the matter.

    So the old printed regional maps were 14 squares wide, which means 350 leagues (14*25) wide. However, a close examination of the old Lythia world map and the regional grid superimposed upon it, along with the canon statement that Kethira has a diameter of about 2875 leagues, indicated that the regional rectangles should be 375 leagues (15*25) wide. (There was no discrepancy with the height.)

    How this goof was committed in the 1980s I don't know. But that the way to fix it was so conveniently simple (adding an extra column of squares) makes me wonder if someone simply screwed up entering a number into a calculator. Or perhaps Robin or a contributing writer tried to be too clever and no one else was checking the math. There were other errors of the kind made back then, such as the goofy astrophysics of the star Nolomar.

    This map topic was hashed over and rehashed on the Lythia.com HarnForum ten years ago. So in addition to not being made on a whim, the decision was made in the open with Harniacs having an opportunity to provide input on the best way to fix the problem. And as Jack indicated, the final say on this was Robin's.

  • 15-square wide regional maps   2 years 13 weeks ago

    KP's decision to produce 15-square-wide regional maps was not made on a whim. There was a major conflict in the old (1980s) maps that needed to be corrected. Making the new regional maps 15 squares wide was the easiest way to fix the matter.

    So the old printed regional maps were 14 squares wide, which means 350 leagues (14*25) wide. However, a close examination of the old Lythia world map and the regional grid superimposed upon it, along with the canon statement that Kethira has a diameter of about 2875 leagues, indicated that the regional rectangles should be 375 leagues (15*25) wide. (There was no discrepancy with the height.)

    How this goof was committed in the 1980s I don't know. But that the way to fix it was so conveniently simple (adding an extra column of squares) makes me wonder if someone simply screwed up entering a number into a calculator. Or perhaps Robin or a contributing writer tried to be too clever and no one else was checking the math. There were other errors of the kind made back then, such as the goofy astrophysics of the star Nolomar.

    This map topic was hashed over and rehashed on the Lythia.com HarnForum ten years ago. So in addition to not being made on a whim, the decision was made in the open with Harniacs having an opportunity to provide input on the best way to fix the problem. And as Jack indicated, the final say on this was Robin's.

  • 15-square wide regional maps   2 years 13 weeks ago

    There's technically no "tone of voice" in written communication, but the tone of your post was lacking all the same...

    1) Game worlds evolve.

    2) Creative minds change occasionally.

    3) The "published maps" that you refer to were published by the former publisher of HarnWorld material using 1980's technology.

    4) The newer maps published by Kelestia have been reworked using N. Robin Crossby's input (before he passed) and notes (after he passed) using 21st century technology.

    5) There's a reason why there's a current and a former publisher of HarnWorld material, and the failure to incorporate NRC's ideas properly is a part of it according to what I've heard.

    Did I mention that the tone of your post was lacking?

    - Jack (Just Another Customer of Kelestia)

  • 15-square wide regional maps   2 years 13 weeks ago

    There's technically no "tone of voice" in written communication, but the tone of your post was lacking all the same...

    1) Game worlds evolve.

    2) Creative minds change occasionally.

    3) The "published maps" that you refer to were published by the former publisher of HarnWorld material using 1980's technology.

    4) The newer maps published by Kelestia have been reworked using N. Robin Crossby's input (before he passed) and notes (after he passed) using 21st century technology.

    5) There's a reason why there's a current and a former publisher of HarnWorld material, and the failure to incorporate NRC's ideas properly is a part of it according to what I've heard.

    Did I mention that the tone of your post was lacking?

    - Jack (Just Another Customer of Kelestia)

  • Atlas Keléstia - SHKN G5 (Yelâben), F5 (Trevéhedè) & E5 (Baas), revised   2 years 15 weeks ago

    I would rather use the low-hanging fruits of K4 and I7, so that you have two 3*4 blocks - one of Ledenheim, the other of Chelemby and surroundings.

    Apart from blocks covering regions, lines of work could be the coastline (E8, H9) or the stony backbone of Harbaal, with K2 (hint, hint) and K3 forming a cohesive stretch of alpine wilderness where coastline hexes can be attached.

    Naturally the coastlines are imho the most useful for gamers and the hardest work to create - and will need some backup with kingdoms. Hurisea and Emelrene loom here at large, competing with Harbaal and Shorkyne for attention :-)

    My "encouragment" would be to create K4, I7, K2, and K3 for "easy" gains on the map. From there on some obvious next steps would be G4 and E8. The four sea hexes of E3:F4 would then create a large chunk of sea, and H4 a major block of 5*7. Then there are only four chunks left on the southern coast of the bay of Shorkyne and another four to cover the whole coast - lots of work, but a major step towards complete coverage. May we expect these before 2017? ;-)

  • Atlas Keléstia - SHKN G5 (Yelâben), F5 (Trevéhedè) & E5 (Baas), revised   2 years 15 weeks ago

    So you're perhaps encouraging us to work on SHKN-K4 and E8? Those squares would complete two more convenient blocks. K4 would be the last piece of Ledenhem-W. Hurisea block, and E8 finishes the central Shorkyne coast.

    Actually, K4 is far enough along that it should be published this summer. E8 not so much.

  • Atlas Keléstia - SHKN G5 (Yelâben), F5 (Trevéhedè) & E5 (Baas), revised   2 years 15 weeks ago

    And this completes the rehash of the 8 Chelemby hexes. Now on to new shores :-)

    The Atlas Kelestia map starts to show completed blops.

  • Ledenheim - new freeholds   2 years 16 weeks ago

    It will depend on where exactly you placed the new freehold. If it's halfway from Steneken to Orgetkin, I would expect clan Kinule to shift useful pack animals away from the site as winter approaches. The reasons for this are that they would want pack animals to be located close to where the spring caravans originate and second that the new holding is likely to have limited forage to feed the animals through the entire winter. (Remember, even in well-developed areas, the greatest slaughter of farm animals occurs in late autumn when the farmers compare how many animals they have to how many animals they will be able to feed during winter.)

    Absent a barn having been built my guess is that animals that are kept over at the holding all winter would be housed in sheds. If time has been limited, the sheds might start the winter open on some sides, possibly all four sides, and then perhaps be enclosed as time passes.

    The Hurisea Road is mostly marked as "good tracks & trails". You can probably treat that as meaning that carts could traverse much of it, but there is no one performing any sort of maintenance and there are going to be spots where it is difficult for wheeled vehicles. Note the lack of any bridges marked where it cross the various streams and minor rivers. Crossing at these locations during spring runoff could be an adventure.

  • Ledenheim - new freeholds   2 years 16 weeks ago

    It will depend on where exactly you placed the new freehold. If it's halfway from Steneken to Orgetkin, I would expect clan Kinule to shift useful pack animals away from the site as winter approaches. The reasons for this are that they would want pack animals to be located close to where the spring caravans originate and second that the new holding is likely to have limited forage to feed the animals through the entire winter. (Remember, even in well-developed areas, the greatest slaughter of farm animals occurs in late autumn when the farmers compare how many animals they have to how many animals they will be able to feed during winter.)

    Absent a barn having been built my guess is that animals that are kept over at the holding all winter would be housed in sheds. If time has been limited, the sheds might start the winter open on some sides, possibly all four sides, and then perhaps be enclosed as time passes.

    The Hurisea Road is mostly marked as "good tracks & trails". You can probably treat that as meaning that carts could traverse much of it, but there is no one performing any sort of maintenance and there are going to be spots where it is difficult for wheeled vehicles. Note the lack of any bridges marked where it cross the various streams and minor rivers. Crossing at these locations during spring runoff could be an adventure.

  • Ledenheim - new freeholds   2 years 16 weeks ago

    And, especially as it's the teamster clan Kinule's freehold, there'd be various pack animals as well or would they have travelled back home? Would they be sheltered in the houses or kept in a fenced off pen or something? And, while I think on, can carts/wagons traverse the Hurisea trail?

    Thanks rbs (I assume you're Rob, the author?). I could just guess this stuff myself, I know, but it's nice to get some more knowledgable input.

    Dan.

  • Ledenheim - new freeholds   2 years 16 weeks ago

    And, especially as it's the teamster clan Kinule's freehold, there'd be various pack animals as well or would they have travelled back home? Would they be sheltered in the houses or kept in a fenced off pen or something? And, while I think on, can carts/wagons traverse the Hurisea trail?

    Thanks rbs (I assume you're Rob, the author?). I could just guess this stuff myself, I know, but it's nice to get some more knowledgable input.

    Dan.

  • Ledenheim - new freeholds   2 years 16 weeks ago

    I would basically expect a palisaded settlement, with surrounding cleared acreage determined by available labour and location.

    If the location is a nice riverside meadow, there could be substantive cleared and planted area within a year. But if it's in the middle of the forest, then the "colonists" have probably spent much of the past year clearing trees. Expect a smoky atmosphere from burning out stumps and unusable trash wood.

    Housing within the palisade will not be very impressive as the colonists will probably have had to spend more time clearing land and farming than on homebuilding. Wattle & daub houses and log cabins are probably as much as you can expect in a year. Some residents may be living in little better than huts.

    Expect the wildlife near the settlement to be thinned out due to dependence on hunting for food. Tehre may be a fair number of pigs since they can forage in the woods for themselves; cattle will come later.

  • Ledenheim - new freeholds   2 years 16 weeks ago

    I would basically expect a palisaded settlement, with surrounding cleared acreage determined by available labour and location.

    If the location is a nice riverside meadow, there could be substantive cleared and planted area within a year. But if it's in the middle of the forest, then the "colonists" have probably spent much of the past year clearing trees. Expect a smoky atmosphere from burning out stumps and unusable trash wood.

    Housing within the palisade will not be very impressive as the colonists will probably have had to spend more time clearing land and farming than on homebuilding. Wattle & daub houses and log cabins are probably as much as you can expect in a year. Some residents may be living in little better than huts.

    Expect the wildlife near the settlement to be thinned out due to dependence on hunting for food. Tehre may be a fair number of pigs since they can forage in the woods for themselves; cattle will come later.

  • Hârn and Runequest 6   2 years 16 weeks ago

    "However, many players take a superficial view of things"

    Involving players in the game is almost always a mistake. ;-)

    Your players simply need to realize that in this world you don't just choose your deity in isolation. Your faith comes from your community and your place within that community. Some faiths are explicitly ethnic - e.g. Sarajin/Ivinian, Ilvir/Jarin. Some faiths appeal to certain classes - Save K'nor/Scholars, Halea/Merchants, Agrik&Larani/Warriors, Peoni/Farmers, Morgath/Urban Poor. To choose another faith is to choose another society, which is something that very few people do willingly.

    I find that most players easily get past the D&D-ish mentality once they realize that religion isn't just a game mechanic in this world.


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