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  • Firis & Points East   7 years 16 weeks ago

    (I haven't figured out how to quote yet . . .)

    That is certainly a valid way to read the Save-K'nor article. And the words of the introduction definitely support some sort of neutrality:

    "Adherents of the church have no particular moral bent beyond loyalty to the church and its objectives. However, belief in an ordered society seems to preclude evil or chaotic behavior, and the occasional need to take ruthless action is repugnant to selfless persons."

    The last portion in particular (about ruthlessness not fitting with selflessness) seems to be saying that the church isn't Good. But Good doesn't have to mean "protect all innocents." It can also mean "protect the many, even if this harms a few innocents." The typical person - focusing on the immediate situation - usually doesn't consider that last.

    Although the goal of the faith seems to be clear (at least to GMs):

    (Page 2, last paragraph)

    "The purpose of the church was to mirror on the mortal plane, the function of Save-K'nor and his court in heaven. They were to gather knowledge from the world over, hiding what was dangerous, meagerly spooning out hints and lore to individuals where this might preserve order, acting as the arbiter of religious dispute. This was a complicated mission, and has yet to be fully achieved."

    "Dangerous" could mean "dangerous to social stability." But it could also mean "dangerous to every living soul." E.g. how to destroy Kelestia.

    As to SK's Lawfulness, the usual interpretation of being Lawful is to conform to or otherwise uphold the law. SK - on the contrary - wants to make the law, to shape it into whatever best fits the mission:

    (Page 3)

    "[The Shea-Al-Aecor] was to use the knowledge and wisdom of the church, albeit covertly, first to obtain a secure position for the church, then to shape social and political institutions."

    "[Clerics] moved quietly in elite social circles, making converts among the intelligensia on a one to one basis. Nor did they seek to convert large numbers. They believed, and still believe, that society is always controlled by a few key individuals; these are the people that interest them."

    I can certainly see this attitude as a type of Lawful.

    But I prefer to think of anyone who sees the law as nothing more than a tool to be used as being Neutral toward Law and Chaos. They've only chosen to use Law because it's more predictable than Chaos.

    Essentially, I see SK as a clan patriarch who thinks he knows best what to do to keep his people (Kelestia) safe, regardless of what others think or what tricks he must use.

  • Firis & Points East   7 years 16 weeks ago

    (I haven't figured out how to quote yet . . .)

    That is certainly a valid way to read the Save-K'nor article. And the words of the introduction definitely support some sort of neutrality:

    "Adherents of the church have no particular moral bent beyond loyalty to the church and its objectives. However, belief in an ordered society seems to preclude evil or chaotic behavior, and the occasional need to take ruthless action is repugnant to selfless persons."

    The last portion in particular (about ruthlessness not fitting with selflessness) seems to be saying that the church isn't Good. But Good doesn't have to mean "protect all innocents." It can also mean "protect the many, even if this harms a few innocents." The typical person - focusing on the immediate situation - usually doesn't consider that last.

    Although the goal of the faith seems to be clear (at least to GMs):

    (Page 2, last paragraph)

    "The purpose of the church was to mirror on the mortal plane, the function of Save-K'nor and his court in heaven. They were to gather knowledge from the world over, hiding what was dangerous, meagerly spooning out hints and lore to individuals where this might preserve order, acting as the arbiter of religious dispute. This was a complicated mission, and has yet to be fully achieved."

    "Dangerous" could mean "dangerous to social stability." But it could also mean "dangerous to every living soul." E.g. how to destroy Kelestia.

    As to SK's Lawfulness, the usual interpretation of being Lawful is to conform to or otherwise uphold the law. SK - on the contrary - wants to make the law, to shape it into whatever best fits the mission:

    (Page 3)

    "[The Shea-Al-Aecor] was to use the knowledge and wisdom of the church, albeit covertly, first to obtain a secure position for the church, then to shape social and political institutions."

    "[Clerics] moved quietly in elite social circles, making converts among the intelligensia on a one to one basis. Nor did they seek to convert large numbers. They believed, and still believe, that society is always controlled by a few key individuals; these are the people that interest them."

    I can certainly see this attitude as a type of Lawful.

    But I prefer to think of anyone who sees the law as nothing more than a tool to be used as being Neutral toward Law and Chaos. They've only chosen to use Law because it's more predictable than Chaos.

    Essentially, I see SK as a clan patriarch who thinks he knows best what to do to keep his people (Kelestia) safe, regardless of what others think or what tricks he must use.

  • New product release this weekend....   7 years 16 weeks ago

    Just skimming Venarive - the problem with Kelestia is that you already expect top quality modules, so I am not surprised. It has been a long haul since the old Harnworld module...
    I am looking forward to delving deeper into it.

  • Firis & Points East   7 years 16 weeks ago

    > Save-K'nor = A priesthood organized from it's inception to work subtly behind the scenes to further the overall good of society seems to pretty much require NG.

    Take another look at that. SK hierarchy are not so much interested in the common good as they are social stability, which promotes the ability of the faith to accomplish whatever' their goals may be. They don't care about good and evil as long as everything is stable. I most definitely agree with Balesir's assessment that they are LN.

  • Firis & Points East   7 years 16 weeks ago

    > Save-K'nor = A priesthood organized from it's inception to work subtly behind the scenes to further the overall good of society seems to pretty much require NG.

    Take another look at that. SK hierarchy are not so much interested in the common good as they are social stability, which promotes the ability of the faith to accomplish whatever' their goals may be. They don't care about good and evil as long as everything is stable. I most definitely agree with Balesir's assessment that they are LN.

  • Firis & Points East   7 years 16 weeks ago

    It's my own take.

    Peoni - I initially considered NG for Peoni, as she doesn't appear to actively stand for lawfulness. But after thinking about it a while, I realized that a peasant's life (circumscribed about as it is by tradition and mutual dependence within the manorial community) is a very lawful existence. So peasants worshiping a deity who doesn't express an opinion on Law vs Chaos strikes me as unlikely. Also, there's the Earl of Tormau's tolerance and even tacit encouragement of the worship of Peoni by his serfs, since she encourages submission to the established order.

    Siem - This deity is so standoffish that some element of Neutrality appears to be demanded. With the Sindarin and Khuzdul being essentially unchanging, any kind of Chaotic alignment for him just didn't feel right. And he simply isn't activist enough (unless he's hidden it REAL well for the last several thousand years anyway) to be a supporter of Good. That leaves me with either N or LN. Since I couldn't see Khuzdul being comfortable with a non-Lawful deity, I went with LN.

    Save-K'nor = A priesthood organized from it's inception to work subtly behind the scenes to further the overall good of society seems to pretty much require NG.

    Sarajin - The Code of the ("L" word which I can't remember how to spell) changes him from N to LN, for me.

    Halea - She's definitely some kind of Neutral. But while her hedonism makes me think "Chaotic," merchantilistic contractual tendencies make me think "Lawful." I still haven't made up my mind.

    Ilvir - This deity does what he wants, when he wants, so that could very well be CN. (It's pretty much the definition of it, for PCs anyway). But he doesn't actually seem to purposefully support Chaos; it's merely the unconsidered end effect of his activities. I'm afraid I see Ilvir as far too self-centered and withdrawn from the world (even though he's the only god to actually still dwell here) to be anything other than N. I have the distinct feeling that the principle reason that Ilvir is still camped by Lake Benath is that he's been too busy to get around to moving . . .

    Naveh/Agrik/Morgath - I agree with you fully about these three. Naveh's insanely strict fanatics, Agrik's self-defeating ill-order and Morgath's stone-cold insanity really can't support anything other than those alignments (LE/NE/CE).

  • Firis & Points East   7 years 16 weeks ago

    It's my own take.

    Peoni - I initially considered NG for Peoni, as she doesn't appear to actively stand for lawfulness. But after thinking about it a while, I realized that a peasant's life (circumscribed about as it is by tradition and mutual dependence within the manorial community) is a very lawful existence. So peasants worshiping a deity who doesn't express an opinion on Law vs Chaos strikes me as unlikely. Also, there's the Earl of Tormau's tolerance and even tacit encouragement of the worship of Peoni by his serfs, since she encourages submission to the established order.

    Siem - This deity is so standoffish that some element of Neutrality appears to be demanded. With the Sindarin and Khuzdul being essentially unchanging, any kind of Chaotic alignment for him just didn't feel right. And he simply isn't activist enough (unless he's hidden it REAL well for the last several thousand years anyway) to be a supporter of Good. That leaves me with either N or LN. Since I couldn't see Khuzdul being comfortable with a non-Lawful deity, I went with LN.

    Save-K'nor = A priesthood organized from it's inception to work subtly behind the scenes to further the overall good of society seems to pretty much require NG.

    Sarajin - The Code of the ("L" word which I can't remember how to spell) changes him from N to LN, for me.

    Halea - She's definitely some kind of Neutral. But while her hedonism makes me think "Chaotic," merchantilistic contractual tendencies make me think "Lawful." I still haven't made up my mind.

    Ilvir - This deity does what he wants, when he wants, so that could very well be CN. (It's pretty much the definition of it, for PCs anyway). But he doesn't actually seem to purposefully support Chaos; it's merely the unconsidered end effect of his activities. I'm afraid I see Ilvir as far too self-centered and withdrawn from the world (even though he's the only god to actually still dwell here) to be anything other than N. I have the distinct feeling that the principle reason that Ilvir is still camped by Lake Benath is that he's been too busy to get around to moving . . .

    Naveh/Agrik/Morgath - I agree with you fully about these three. Naveh's insanely strict fanatics, Agrik's self-defeating ill-order and Morgath's stone-cold insanity really can't support anything other than those alignments (LE/NE/CE).

  • Venârivè: Northwestern Lýthia is published!   7 years 16 weeks ago

    quoting a certain duck from Warner Brothers...

    "IT'S MINE !!! MINE I TELL YOU, MINE, MINE MINE..."

    (Oyster shell closes cutting off maniacal laughter)

  • Venârivè: Northwestern Lýthia is published!   7 years 16 weeks ago

    quoting a certain duck from Warner Brothers...

    "IT'S MINE !!! MINE I TELL YOU, MINE, MINE MINE..."

    (Oyster shell closes cutting off maniacal laughter)

  • Firis & Points East   7 years 16 weeks ago

    Interesting take on gods' alignments - did you get that from a fanon source or is it your own take?

    For what little it's worth, my assignment, many years ago, was:

    Larani = LG
    Peoni = NG
    Siem = CG
    Save K'nor = LN
    Sarajin = NN
    Halea = NN
    Ilvir = CN
    Naveh = LE
    Agrik = NE
    Morgath = CE

    I guess it depends on the roles you see the different alignments having in the psyche, though.

  • Firis & Points East   7 years 16 weeks ago

    Interesting take on gods' alignments - did you get that from a fanon source or is it your own take?

    For what little it's worth, my assignment, many years ago, was:

    Larani = LG
    Peoni = NG
    Siem = CG
    Save K'nor = LN
    Sarajin = NN
    Halea = NN
    Ilvir = CN
    Naveh = LE
    Agrik = NE
    Morgath = CE

    I guess it depends on the roles you see the different alignments having in the psyche, though.

  • Firis & Points East   7 years 16 weeks ago

    Pathfinder is - apparently - quite close to 3.5. At least, people I know who've played both say that the only difference is that Pathfinder has simplified some aspects.

    I'm not very concerned about maintaining the Arcane/Divine split. I see this as more a philosophical or psychological split than an actual one. Wizards must memorize their spells in advance, because that's how they learned to use them; clerics must pray for them in advance because that's how *they* learned. I'm thinking that for this campaign, any folk who manipulate mana eventually come to the notice of the Harnic deities, especially as they become more powerful. While they might start out ignoring the Gods altogether, as time goes on (as they increase in level), they will tend to get wrapped up in divine machinations, whether they intend for this to happen or not.

    As for Pvaric philosophy, I'm thinking that most of the Pathfinder/3.5 spells could actually be from any of the Convocations or else be Neutral. The different Elements could be combined in various ways and yield the same results. A "Fireball" thrown by a Jmovin wouldn't actually involve fire, but would be something (vaporized iron ore?) that would cause the same effects. The difference would be in the descriptions.

    As this campaign begins at Trobridge Inn, human PCs will be strongly encouraged and no Evil PCs permitted, I'm thinking:

    Barbarian = Starts as a Tulwyni berserker; at high level, Kekamar (CN) and perhaps eventually Sarajin (LN) get personally interested.

    Bard = Starts as a simple thespian from the Thardic League; at high level, first the Rydequelyn and eventually Save-K'nor (NG) will take notice. And may oppose him/her, if the PC doesn't join up and so threatens to upset "the balance."

    Cleric = Ilvir (N), Larani (LG), Peoni (LG) or Sarajin (LN). As per the Corebook, PC alignment must be within one step of the chosen diety. For Save-K'nor, see Bard above; for Siem, see Druid, below.

    Druid = Starts as shaman/wise woman of the Gozyda or Kath; at high levels, Siem (LN) begins to take notice.

    Fighter = Starts as a Trobridge Inn gaurd (if Lawful or Good) or one of Kurson of Ondailis' men (if Chaotic or Neutral); at high level, either Larani or Sarajin will express interest.

    Monk = Starts as a strange foreigner who speaks Harnic with a pronounced accent and left the Cherafir Alienage after a "disagreement" with the local Lia Kaviar; at high levels, Larani (LG) expresses interest.

    Paladin = Starts as a Larianian squire from Kaldor, the only (?) survivor of the Earl of Qauldris' posse, which was unfortunate enough to encounter a foraging party of Gargun some leagues East of the Inn; at high levels . . . well . . . Larani (LG), of course!

    Ranger = Starts as a footloose Jarin woodsman from Evael; at high levels, Siem (LN) takes interest.

    Rogue = Starts as an accidental murderer who fled from Kaldor some months ago . . . Naw, just kidding! :) Could be any kind of miscreant, from anywhere. This IS Trobridge, after all. At high levels, Naveh starts expressing interest (shudder!).

    Sorcerer = Starts as a Satia-Mavara from Cherafir, on their required quest; at high levels, Siem will most likely take interest (but others are possible: Agrik if Infernal, Ilvir if Aberrant, Morgath if Undead, Naveh if Abyssal, etc).

    Wizard = Another Satia-Mavara, this one from Tashal (a more restrictive chantry); as per Sorcerer at high levels, although with less chance of dieties other than Siem taking an interest.

  • Firis & Points East   7 years 16 weeks ago

    Pathfinder is - apparently - quite close to 3.5. At least, people I know who've played both say that the only difference is that Pathfinder has simplified some aspects.

    I'm not very concerned about maintaining the Arcane/Divine split. I see this as more a philosophical or psychological split than an actual one. Wizards must memorize their spells in advance, because that's how they learned to use them; clerics must pray for them in advance because that's how *they* learned. I'm thinking that for this campaign, any folk who manipulate mana eventually come to the notice of the Harnic deities, especially as they become more powerful. While they might start out ignoring the Gods altogether, as time goes on (as they increase in level), they will tend to get wrapped up in divine machinations, whether they intend for this to happen or not.

    As for Pvaric philosophy, I'm thinking that most of the Pathfinder/3.5 spells could actually be from any of the Convocations or else be Neutral. The different Elements could be combined in various ways and yield the same results. A "Fireball" thrown by a Jmovin wouldn't actually involve fire, but would be something (vaporized iron ore?) that would cause the same effects. The difference would be in the descriptions.

    As this campaign begins at Trobridge Inn, human PCs will be strongly encouraged and no Evil PCs permitted, I'm thinking:

    Barbarian = Starts as a Tulwyni berserker; at high level, Kekamar (CN) and perhaps eventually Sarajin (LN) get personally interested.

    Bard = Starts as a simple thespian from the Thardic League; at high level, first the Rydequelyn and eventually Save-K'nor (NG) will take notice. And may oppose him/her, if the PC doesn't join up and so threatens to upset "the balance."

    Cleric = Ilvir (N), Larani (LG), Peoni (LG) or Sarajin (LN). As per the Corebook, PC alignment must be within one step of the chosen diety. For Save-K'nor, see Bard above; for Siem, see Druid, below.

    Druid = Starts as shaman/wise woman of the Gozyda or Kath; at high levels, Siem (LN) begins to take notice.

    Fighter = Starts as a Trobridge Inn gaurd (if Lawful or Good) or one of Kurson of Ondailis' men (if Chaotic or Neutral); at high level, either Larani or Sarajin will express interest.

    Monk = Starts as a strange foreigner who speaks Harnic with a pronounced accent and left the Cherafir Alienage after a "disagreement" with the local Lia Kaviar; at high levels, Larani (LG) expresses interest.

    Paladin = Starts as a Larianian squire from Kaldor, the only (?) survivor of the Earl of Qauldris' posse, which was unfortunate enough to encounter a foraging party of Gargun some leagues East of the Inn; at high levels . . . well . . . Larani (LG), of course!

    Ranger = Starts as a footloose Jarin woodsman from Evael; at high levels, Siem (LN) takes interest.

    Rogue = Starts as an accidental murderer who fled from Kaldor some months ago . . . Naw, just kidding! :) Could be any kind of miscreant, from anywhere. This IS Trobridge, after all. At high levels, Naveh starts expressing interest (shudder!).

    Sorcerer = Starts as a Satia-Mavara from Cherafir, on their required quest; at high levels, Siem will most likely take interest (but others are possible: Agrik if Infernal, Ilvir if Aberrant, Morgath if Undead, Naveh if Abyssal, etc).

    Wizard = Another Satia-Mavara, this one from Tashal (a more restrictive chantry); as per Sorcerer at high levels, although with less chance of dieties other than Siem taking an interest.

  • Venârivè: Northwestern Lýthia is published!   7 years 16 weeks ago

    So when do you start work on Eastern Lythia? (broad grin)

    Congrats, Jeremy. Kelestia and the Harn community are exceedingly lucky you have taken up the mantle.

    See you in NZ next summer.

    Lawrence

  • Venârivè: Northwestern Lýthia is published!   7 years 16 weeks ago

    So when do you start work on Eastern Lythia? (broad grin)

    Congrats, Jeremy. Kelestia and the Harn community are exceedingly lucky you have taken up the mantle.

    See you in NZ next summer.

    Lawrence

  • New product release this weekend....   7 years 16 weeks ago

    The Venarive product is released!!!

  • New product release this weekend....   7 years 16 weeks ago

    The chum is in the water...Cue "Jaws" soundtrack.

  • New product release this weekend....   7 years 16 weeks ago

    Could it be the 4th surprise installment in the Fanon series? Just wonderin'. Does this mean I can stop holding my breath? I'm in a quandary now. I was supposed to go camping this weekend, where I wouldn't have internet/computer access. I may stay home.

    Kindest Regards,

    Tim.

  • New product release this weekend....   7 years 16 weeks ago

    I've been vondering ven the next product might arive. And of course vot it might be.

  • Firis & Points East   7 years 16 weeks ago

    It depends how strict you want to be regarding interpretations, from a D&D point of view. I only know 3.5E, not Pathfinder, but Bardic magic there is Arcane rather than Divine; that would make Master Harpers (or, indeed, members of the Rydequelyn, the Save K'norian order you were thinking of) who dabble in Pvaric philosophy and 'magic' a better fit. It depends how seriously you take the Arcane/Divine split and how firmly you want to incorporate Hârnic/Pvaric systems of magic and thought.

  • Firis & Points East   7 years 16 weeks ago

    It depends how strict you want to be regarding interpretations, from a D&D point of view. I only know 3.5E, not Pathfinder, but Bardic magic there is Arcane rather than Divine; that would make Master Harpers (or, indeed, members of the Rydequelyn, the Save K'norian order you were thinking of) who dabble in Pvaric philosophy and 'magic' a better fit. It depends how seriously you take the Arcane/Divine split and how firmly you want to incorporate Hârnic/Pvaric systems of magic and thought.

  • Firis & Points East   7 years 16 weeks ago

    It was nice of you not to point out that I misread both the a) Tulwyn and b) Gozyda articles, above:

    a) All of my careful math involving the differing number of tribes matters not a whit, since the "[t]olls collected are taken to the overchief [head of the leading tribe] who divides them fairly among the tribes." :/ On the plus side, this more careful second reading did let me notice that "to the east the Tulwyn avoid [sic] the southern reaches of the Gargun-infested Felsha mountains." According to the range map, the avoided portion is composed of the higher elevations. Thus - except in the event of swarms - there must not be *too* many Gargun normally encountered in the area of interest.

    b) The Gozyda are divided into three sub-nations, with the ranges of only two of these located along the Salt Route. As both sub-nations are composed of independent family units too small to threaten the large annual caravans, they don't figure into the math at all. Although they could prompt lesser mercantylers (those who would like to pursue out-of-season trade in caravans small enough to be vulnerable to Gozyda families) to seek an alternate route.

    And - yes - it would be a very hard scenario. So I think I'll wait until the party has a few Pathfinder levels under their collective belt, before I offer them this commission. Preferably, such a party would include a skilled Bard (for those difficult negotiations), as well.

    BTW, speaking of Bards . . .

    I'm thinking that (in Harnic terms) a Pathfinder/3.5 Bard would be - essentially - a priest of Save K'nor. After all, isn't Save K'nor the one who has that tale-spinning travelling minstrel - the one who uses a lute - as one of his demigods?

  • Firis & Points East   7 years 16 weeks ago

    It was nice of you not to point out that I misread both the a) Tulwyn and b) Gozyda articles, above:

    a) All of my careful math involving the differing number of tribes matters not a whit, since the "[t]olls collected are taken to the overchief [head of the leading tribe] who divides them fairly among the tribes." :/ On the plus side, this more careful second reading did let me notice that "to the east the Tulwyn avoid [sic] the southern reaches of the Gargun-infested Felsha mountains." According to the range map, the avoided portion is composed of the higher elevations. Thus - except in the event of swarms - there must not be *too* many Gargun normally encountered in the area of interest.

    b) The Gozyda are divided into three sub-nations, with the ranges of only two of these located along the Salt Route. As both sub-nations are composed of independent family units too small to threaten the large annual caravans, they don't figure into the math at all. Although they could prompt lesser mercantylers (those who would like to pursue out-of-season trade in caravans small enough to be vulnerable to Gozyda families) to seek an alternate route.

    And - yes - it would be a very hard scenario. So I think I'll wait until the party has a few Pathfinder levels under their collective belt, before I offer them this commission. Preferably, such a party would include a skilled Bard (for those difficult negotiations), as well.

    BTW, speaking of Bards . . .

    I'm thinking that (in Harnic terms) a Pathfinder/3.5 Bard would be - essentially - a priest of Save K'nor. After all, isn't Save K'nor the one who has that tale-spinning travelling minstrel - the one who uses a lute - as one of his demigods?

  • New product release this weekend....   7 years 16 weeks ago

    Yes! I'm most eager to see it :-D

  • New product release this weekend....   7 years 16 weeks ago

    An imminent product is emanating!?


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